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How can war be civil?

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How can war be civil?

Postby Lightening Bug » Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:51 pm

I'm reading a book that gives a view of the Civil war from the Southern side.It's title is The killer angels by Michel Shaara. While reading it, again, I wondered why it's called the Civil war?

It turns out civil has meaning{s} that go to an earlier time when it was used.


Quote from article below -

the earliest sense of the word in English is simply “of or relating to citizens.” This early meaning of civil mirrors that of its Latin predecessor, civilis (which came from civis, meaning “citizen”). It is this sense of civil, rather than the “mannerly” one, which gives us civil war, with its meaning of “a war between opposing groups of citizens of the same country.”


https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/civil-meaning-why-is-it-called-civil-war

Thought some of you would find this of interest.

Take care and be well. :D
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Re: How can war be civil?

Postby Red Dave » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:09 pm

I've read quite a bit about the Civil War, but not that particular book. I am acquainted with it, however.
It is a historical fiction, while the people and events are real, many details and dialogue are made up.

It was used as the basis for the movie Gettysburg that was made in 1993, a lot of which was shot near the battleground. I know several reenactors who were extras in the film, including the guy who owned most of the cannons used for the movie and a brother-in-law who played a dead Union soldier. I have no idea how closely the movie followed the book, but it is a pretty good movie. It made Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain and the 20th Maine famous.
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Re: How can war be civil?

Postby mowmud » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:42 pm

No war is civil. War is hell. You need to be on the right end of one of these. If the South would of won... we'd be in a much better place now. We were sqashed by government funded horse puckey. Imagine if we had unlimited funds to turn 'them' around.If the South would have won, we'd have it made. I'm not talking about slavery either. Just the spirit of life. I have stories of slavery I could tell, but due to respect of this site, I choose not to relate them.
cannon.JPG
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Re: How can war be civil?

Postby Sid » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:25 pm

Lightening Bug wrote:I'm reading a book that gives a view of the Civil war from the Southern side.It's title is The killer angels by Michel Shaara. While reading it, again, I wondered why it's called the Civil war?

It turns out civil has meaning{s} that go to an earlier time when it was used.


Quote from article below -

the earliest sense of the word in English is simply “of or relating to citizens.” This early meaning of civil mirrors that of its Latin predecessor, civilis (which came from civis, meaning “citizen”). It is this sense of civil, rather than the “mannerly” one, which gives us civil war, with its meaning of “a war between opposing groups of citizens of the same country.”


https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/civil-meaning-why-is-it-called-civil-war

Thought some of you would find this of interest.

Take care and be well. :D

That was taught in school many years ago. Would you be surprised to know that the emancipation proclamation did not free all the slaves?
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Re: How can war be civil?

Postby screamer » Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:55 am

Or that the 1st Native Militia, comprised of 1500 free blacks was one of the first units to join Confederate forces, Richard Poplar, the Black Confederate who became a hero at the horrible Federal pow camp at point lookout, set up a make shift infirmary and saved the lives of many fellow Confederate soldiers. Reports of his funeral say that 15,000 turned out to pay respects. Or that the average treatment of slaves was far better than the way northern industrialists treated immigrant factory workers. 12 hour days 6 days a week, for wages that could not pay for shelter AND fuel for heat in winter. So many died and there were always dozens to take their place.
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Re: How can war be civil?

Postby mowmud » Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:55 pm

I'm gonna do my best to keep civil. Try and relate a story my Grandma told me, not so much a story, but as something comes up in normal conversation.

When I went down and visited Grandma, I'd eat just about anything but chitlins and boiled okra. Like my okra fried.
We were sitting around the table, Grandma got to giving Grampa grief about what his brothers were doing. Mind you, deep south, early 70's. I was a wee tyke. What Grandma said then, still makes total sense to me today.

This is when slavery was already at an end, but the way things were done was different. They were still treated differently.

Before this everything they needed was provided. Not all slave owners did use a whip. They liked the life compared what the hell they just went through.

They had a house where the family could live, and the whole family was not expected to work. They had a house and were given an allowance for their own discretion. The family was allowed to stay together. Ones that could work, were expected to.

They were also given the chance to be free. Work for 7 years, get your own plot. Indentured servant. Still 7 years is a long time. Gotta start in your early twenties.

The plantation owner (I ain't got much good to say about them) they would let them choose where they wanted their house. I find that to be good. They houses used to be nice. I went back down there through my early twenties, most were gone or in a unfixable shape. Most folks didn't have A/C down there, but the houses were made to maximize cross ventilation. You get a small breeze even on a dusty day.
Grandma kept speaking and said " They'd rather have you do it for them."
Yup, they always got a Christmas, holidays,
didn't let them get cold. Some days it got cold, but the powers that were, would not let it continue. Truly a sad time in history.

I think that the whips and chains thing is a thing held over from the slave ship days.
Can't rightfully say I agree with either side.
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Re: How can war be civil?

Postby Pitch1 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:19 am

So,Slavery was a wonderful thing and the nation would be better off if we all said Y'all and owned us a couple of slaves. Well, Allrighty then!
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Re: How can war be civil?

Postby screamer » Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:50 am

Now pitch, no one said anything so outlandish. Given the times and how rough they were, and all things being relative, many folks in the north were far worse off than the average slave. Freedom isn't much when your family is starving and freezing to death under a bridge in Boston.or subsistence living with both parents and two children all chained to jobs in factories. Even Merriweather Lewis permitted his slaves to live with spouses on other plantations. It is reported that one of his slaves even puchased the freedom of his wife and child from another plantation. Imagine a slave buying freedom for others instead of himself.
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Re: How can war be civil?

Postby mowmud » Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:45 am

I've worked side by side with folks that others wouldn't even associate with.
I tell you that we are all on the same boat... the boat being, our planet.

Gotta learn to get along.

Back to topic.
There were a bunch of 'slaves' that didn't like this whatsoever. They wanted to keep things the way they were. Socialism then and socialism now are greatly different.
If you check history... you will find most 'slaves' were imported by black ship owners. They stole them off their lands. Who wouldn't be fighting mad? They were living happy until 'Joe Schmoe came along, stuffed them in a sailing ship and carted them off to a 'better' life.

So... go ahead and tell me about who created the supposed problem.
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Re: How can war be civil?

Postby littleguns » Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:46 am

As part of my strange eclectic interests, I’ve spent time examining slavery. I’ve read myriad accounts written or dictated by former slaves and former owners. I’ve watched well-researched documentaries. I’ve visited restored slave plantations and examined the slave cabins and masters’ mansions. And I’ve come to a conclusion:

Slaves were treated like animals.

Please let me clarify. We’ve all known of people, or perhaps been guilty ourselves, of doting on animals — cats, dogs, horses, goats, birds, etc., etc. Such folks I confess I’m among them) spend hundreds or thousands a year on animal food, shelter, heat, veterinary care, etc. But then we’ve also read about, or unfortunately known, people who mistreat the hell out of animals — starvation rations, no outdoors shelter, tiny enclosures with poop 6 inches deep, abuse in chains, hit with clubs and whips, etc.

From what I’ve found in my interest in slavery, slaves were treated the same way as animals today — some as treasured members of a family, some as possessions receiving decent treatment through the owner’s self-interest, some as chattel to be misused, abuse and disposed of as expendable. I’ve seen the simple but very livable slave quarters such as the brick cabins at Boone Hall near Charleston. I’ve seen pictures (the actual structures are extremely rare today) of slave housing that I wouldn’t consider fit for chickens or goats. I’ve seen the same good and terrible conditions for animals today.

One thing I’ll never understand is how a slave owner could mistreat such a valuable possession. At slave auctions, slaves often brought bids in the low hundreds to several thousand dollars. Even the lower end of the price range was a lot of money in those days. But I’ve seen the same thing happen with animals today, where a herd of horses worth hundreds of dollars each is left to starve to death. How do you begin to rationalize such irrational treatment? I can’t.

FWIW, in my younger years I also saw people in Midwest black communities living in housing worse than that which many slaves were provided — for example, literally tarpaper shacks in a neighborhood in my boyhood community known as “the Flats,” as it lay alongside the river (an area since demolished in urban renewal). The houses were heated in sub-zero winters with corn cobs burned in a tin stove. So the abolition of slavery obviously didn’t automatically result in a better life for some even decades later.

Ultimately, freedom for the slaves was the most important end result. Freedom is a treasure. No one should be someone else’s possession. (I’m not even convinced I actually own my outdoors cats, or should.) Yet freedom, of course, doesn't bring the end of problems (for people or for cats). Every story has another side.
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